1 (edited by gfs 2016-08-12 15:03:10)

Topic: 1.5 and EXIF/IPTC/iccProfiles

Happy to see the nice work in 1.5 (especially the auto-hide thumbs :) ).

Disappointed to see that JBx is still deleting all the EXIF/IPTC/keyword/iccProfile data from our images.  It's hard for me to believe that this is to save on gallery loading time, since even mobile phones load galleries very fast these days.

To be frank, I think this goes against the whole ethos of being an app for serious photographers.  Does SimpleViewer inc. really think that photographers want all this information removed?

Please consider including an option/checkbox for this important information to be retained in the image files and not automatically stripped out, as is currently the case.

(Stripping iccProfiles in this day and age of wide gamut monitors is just ridiculous).

Re: 1.5 and EXIF/IPTC/iccProfiles

We're glad you like the auto-hide thumbs!

With regard to the metadata embedded into source images, I would recommend that you post your suggestion in the Feature Requests forum thread (as you have done with your other suggestions). This keeps all the ideas together and ensures that they are not overlooked by the developers.

I expect that the problem is not that JuiceboxBuilder-Pro intentionally strips out the metadata but that in resizing an image, a new image is created from the original image's pixels (using a suitable algorithm) and the metadata is not actually part of the process. It would probably be necessary to extract all metadata from the source image, store it somewhere temporarily and embed it into the resized image. With all the different data formats available (e.g. EXIF, IPTC, XMP, ICC) and all their possible values, this is likely to be quite a complex task.

I realise that this does not help but it might shed some light on what is happening. As far as I am aware, JuiceboxBuilder does not have a specific method to remove metadata on purpose. The non-retention of metadata is likely to be a side-effect of resizing images the way that JuiceboxBuilder does.

You could always process the images for your gallery in an imaging program (such as Adobe Photoshop) prior to feeding them to JuiceboxBuilder and deselect the 'Resize Images' checkbox on the 'Images' tab. JuiceboxBuilder will then just copy the images across to the gallery's 'images' folder (complete with any metadata that they may have embedded within them) without processing them at all.

Re: 1.5 and EXIF/IPTC/iccProfiles

Hi Steven,

thanks as ever for the useful reply and wilco for posting to the feature requests.

I've never known any imaging software, or even basic 'image capable' software, like Apple's Preview.app, that would strip, or rather, 'not retain' metadata.  That said, I know absolutely nothing about the Windows world, so perhaps it's not uncommon there?  Either way, I feel it's a really big issue for anyone interested in their images, amateur or professional.  I'm sure that most users are completely unaware that this data is being removed.  At the very least basic copyright information should be retained.  Basically, if you're publishing the image without any data, as far as the US is concerned, then it's freely available for anyone to use.  This isn't the case everywhere, but ... why even allow the question to be raised?

As for the solution of de-selecting the Resize Images checkbox.  Stupidly I hadn't imagined that the site structure would be created anyway!  So this is what I shall do going forward ... but automatic would obviously be much much better.

Re: 1.5 and EXIF/IPTC/iccProfiles

thanks as ever for the useful reply

You're welcome.

I've dabbled a bit with image filters in Java and basically, the process is concerned with only pixels.
The output image is the result of the source image pixels being run through a kernel (a convolution matrix or mask).
The metadata does not even feature in the equation.

I do not know for sure but it sounds like the same concept is being used within JuiceboxBuilder when an image is resized.
A new image is built up using the source image pixels (and the original metadata is left behind).

Anyway, I appreciate you posting in the Feature Requests forum thread.
It is certainly the best place for all ideas.

Re: 1.5 and EXIF/IPTC/iccProfiles

Steven,

yes it occurred to me that this is some sort of command line process that is being used.  Is this the same for the Lr plugin?

Just one question about sizing the images myself (un-checking Resize Images):

Do I have to make my images the same sizes as the settings in the 'Change Sizes' dialog, or does it make no difference?

Re: 1.5 and EXIF/IPTC/iccProfiles

Is this the same for the Lr plugin?

I would imagine that the resizing procedure used by Lightroom would be much more complex that what is available to JuiceboxBuilder-Pro within the Adobe AIR API.
As a test, I've just created a quick gallery with the Lightroom plugin and embedded copyright data is retained in the images exported for the gallery.

Do I have to make my images the same sizes as the settings in the 'Change Sizes' dialog, or does it make no difference?

I'd recommend that the images for the gallery are slightly larger than the gallery's image area (sometimes difficult to gauge for a responsive gallery) so that Juicebox can dynamically scale them down slightly if necessary. In doing so, the images will always be able to be displayed as large as possible within the gallery's image area. If your images are too small, then Juicebox will not scale them up unless you set imageScaleMode="SCALE" in the Main Image Options section (but scaling up small images will reduce their visual quality so I would not recommend it).
The default image size for JuiceboxBuilder is 1024px x 768px which is usually a good compromise for most web galleries.
However, if your target audience is likely to be viewing your galleries on large monitors, you might like to increase these values appropriately.

Re: 1.5 and EXIF/IPTC/iccProfiles

Steven wrote:

You could always process the images for your gallery in an imaging program (such as Adobe Photoshop) prior to feeding them to JuiceboxBuilder and deselect the 'Resize Images' checkbox on the 'Images' tab. JuiceboxBuilder will then just copy the images across to the gallery's 'images' folder (complete with any metadata that they may have embedded within them) without processing them at all.

Steven,

I'm trying this for the first time ... but when I de-select the 'Resize Images' checkbox, JBx no longer allows me to have  large, medium and small images.  When I save the gallery, it deletes the large and small images.

Is there any way of having Juicebox Builder Pro, NOT resize AND allow for 3 sizes?  (Unfortunately, I don't use Lr).

Re: 1.5 and EXIF/IPTC/iccProfiles

... when I de-select the 'Resize Images' checkbox, JBx no longer allows me to have  large, medium and small images.

The only way for JuiceboxBuilder-Pro to create different sizes of images is to resize the source images. As soon as you deselect 'Resize Images', your source images will not be resized at all and your gallery will use just the source images.

Is there any way of having Juicebox Builder Pro, NOT resize AND allow for 3 sizes?  (Unfortunately, I don't use Lr).

No. Unfortunately not.

If you want to have a Multi-Size Image gallery but do not want your images to be resized by JuiceboxBuilder-Pro, then you'll need to:
(1) Create a Multi-Size Image gallery with JuiceboxBuilder-Pro (so that smallImageURL and largeImageURL entries are included in the gallery's 'config.xml' file).
(2) Create three sets of images yourself in an imaging program (such as Photoshop) and replace the images in the gallery's 'images' folder.

9 (edited by gfs 2016-10-13 12:08:51)

Re: 1.5 and EXIF/IPTC/iccProfiles

Steven wrote:

... when I de-select the 'Resize Images' checkbox, JBx no longer allows me to have  large, medium and small images.

If you want to have a Multi-Size Image gallery but do not want your images to be resized by JuiceboxBuilder-Pro, then you'll need to:
(1) Create a Multi-Size Image gallery with JuiceboxBuilder-Pro (so that smallImageURL and largeImageURL entries are included in the gallery's 'config.xml' file).
(2) Create three sets of images yourself in an imaging program (such as Photoshop) and replace the images in the gallery's 'images' folder.


I did this Steven, but if I 'save' the gallery, then all the images are deleted from the Small and Large folders.

I don't mind working around this, but are you certain that the gallery will actually *use/deliver* the small and large images when being used by the appropriate devices?

The reason I question it, is because if you make a gallery with 'Resize Images' un-checked, then there are *no folders* made for small and large ... so it would seem logical that the config file would *not* then be looking for the viewport dimensions, or, looking for the appropriately sized images.

Re: 1.5 and EXIF/IPTC/iccProfiles

... if I 'save' the gallery, then all the images are deleted from the Small and Large folders.

Sorry. I should maybe have been more specific with my instructions.
(1) Create a Multi-Size Image gallery with JuiceboxBuilder-Pro (by selecting 'Resize Images' and allowing the application to create small and large images) so that smallImageURL and largeImageURL entries are included in the gallery's 'config.xml' file and 'small' and 'large' subfolders are included in the gallery's 'images' folder.
(2) Create three sets of images yourself in an imaging program (such as Photoshop) and replace the medium images in the gallery's 'images/' folder, the small images in the gallery's 'images/small/' subfolder and the large images in the 'images/large/' subfolder.
(3) Do not edit the gallery in JuiceboxBuilder-Pro after doing this. If you re-save the gallery with 'Resize Images' deselected, the smallImageURL and largeImageURL entries will be removed from the gallery's 'config.xml' file and the small and large images will be deleted from the 'images/small/' and 'images/large/' subfolders.

... are you certain that the gallery will actually *use/deliver* the small and large images when being used by the appropriate devices?

As long as there are smallImageUrl and largeImageUrl entries with valid paths pointing towards corresponding images (which, by default, will be in the 'images/small/' and 'images/large/' subfolders), then Juicebox-Pro will use the appropriate images (depending on the device, screen size, pixel density, etc.) when the gallery is displayed.

The key is to not re-save your gallery in JuiceboxBuilder-Pro with 'Resize Images' deselected after creating a Multi-Size Image gallery and swapping out your images.

11

Re: 1.5 and EXIF/IPTC/iccProfiles

OK, thanks Steven.

Most of my galleries are created, then never change, so this isn't an issue for me (although ... it would be nice if JBx Builder didn't make it's images without my metadata and colour profiles in the first place!!

Re: 1.5 and EXIF/IPTC/iccProfiles

You're welcome.
I'm glad you're able to workaround this issue and I appreciate you posting the suggestion (for JuiceboxBuilder-Pro to retain metadata when resizing images) in the Feature Requests thread. As I've said, I do not know if this is possible (and if it is, how difficult it would be to achieve), but at least it has been noted in the correct place.
Thank you.

Re: 1.5 and EXIF/IPTC/iccProfiles

Didn't see it mentioned but use of the Photoshop Image Processor will help to automate this process.

Re: 1.5 and EXIF/IPTC/iccProfiles

@bherman

Thanks for the tip.
For anyone with Adobe Photoshop, the 'Image Processor' can be found in the 'File -> Scripts' menu.
Here's Adobe's 'Process a batch of files' support page: https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/using … files.html

15 (edited by gfs 2016-11-25 09:31:28)

Re: 1.5 and EXIF/IPTC/iccProfiles

An update on this, which may persuade SimpleViewer to address this problem more rapidly.

Last week a German photographer (supported by a professional association) won a court case against Facebook, for stripping EXIF and especially IPTC information from uploaded images.

Stripping the data is clearly against German law, and Facebook have not contested the ruling.  I suspect that other EU countries have similar protection, certainly of those that I know a little of copyright law and protection, here in France and possibly in UK

An article on Petapixel discusses the ruling/implication.

http://petapixel.com/2016/11/22/german- … -data-won/

I suspect the fact that Facebook hosts on their own servers and handles the data transfer from beginning to end, is relevant and Simpleviewer products don't do this, notably Showkase hosts on client servers, however, it is murky water and I could imagine an EU wide ruling to make the stripping or not, a user decision, because of course, some people actually do want to strip all data, so that they may post anonymously.

Re: 1.5 and EXIF/IPTC/iccProfiles

I'm not sure how relevant this is to Juicebox but I appreciate you taking the time to point this out and I have notified the developers of your post above. Thank you.

It is true that metadata is not retained when JuiceboxBuilder resizes images but the loss of metadata is happening within a desktop application on the user's computer (rather than via the upload functionality of an online service) and then the files are being uploaded to the user's own web space. (We do not host any user galleries or sites at all.) I guess it's not for me to say how similar (or different) the two scenarios are.

Incidentally, I've just uploaded a test image (with EXIF and IPTC data) to a Showkase v1.6.1 site's Library and the image's metadata was retained after Showkase had resized the image. It looks like issue affects only JuiceboxBuilder.

As I mentioned earlier, it's not that JuiceboxBuilder is intentionally going out of its way to strip metadata from images, it's just that when an image is resized, the metadata would have to be read and stored somewhere before resizing and then written back to the new image after resizing. I do not know if the Adobe AIR API (which JuiceboxBuilder uses) has any methods available that could be used to make this possible. (I expect there would need to be different metadata read and write functions for different file types.)

I realise that, from a user's perspective, the issue is simply that metadata is not retained and the reason why this happens is not important but giving a little background information may at least help in understanding the problem.

Adobe seem to have been slow in implementing this in Muse (see this forum thread) and I do not know if AIR applications are still lagging behind. However, I'm sure the developers will investigate further.

Thanks, again.

17

Re: 1.5 and EXIF/IPTC/iccProfiles

Yes Steven, I reached the same conclusions regarding relevance for SimpleViewer Inc.

It doesn't surprise me at all that Adobe are more than a little devil may care with photographer's intellectual rights and property.  Why change the habits of a lifetime?

However, as can be seen from the case in Germany, it is an issue and it's not going away any time soon.  In fact, in my opinion, those who were teens at the time that the internet really started to arrive, along with digital imaging and 'everyone is a photographer', as those people are now hitting an age when they realise that sharing is one thing, but making billions from their efforts is not so cool, because now they have ambitions and kids to feed, these sorts of legal cases are going to become more prevalent because there is actual value in the images (okay ... not all) and that it's imperative that their details and copyright be embedded in the images.  Anonymous work is not a very smart move.